49

Update Feb 18, 2025: The experiment described under "the first A/B test" below is now running.


Users with low rep, typically new to Stack Overflow, frequently chafe against the limitations they encounter when they first try to use the website. Reports of this feeling are virtually countless across Meta, throughout interviews with users, across our surveys, in our support inbox, and throughout conversations with employees who use the network for the first time (e.g. during community-a-thon).

Right now, when a user tries to perform an action they can’t do, our system tells them quite plainly that they are not able to participate in that way (yet). For example, a user might see:

A screenshot of the "You must have 50 reputation to comment" error message.

But “get 50 rep” is not something a user can just tick off—it’s not quick and not necessarily all that easy, either. In essence, this message boils down to, “No, you can’t do that right now.” (We’ve got a related experiment in progress for comments as well.)

What if the user tries to vote?

A screenshot of the error message raised when upvoting with less than 15 rep: "Thanks for the feedback! You need at least 15 reputation to cast a vote, but your feedback has been recorded."

The wording is softer, but the underlying meaning is the same. The UI actually reverts the action the user tried to perform, returning the vote button to its neutral color, visually showing the user that their vote has not been accepted.

These automated messages - well, they’re not bad. You gotta admit, they’re simple, and they do get the job done. Messages like these appear in a number of places across the network, usually associated with early participation and privileges.

What if our systems instead offered users the option to do something else - something they did have permission to do? That’s the question of the day.

When a user tries to participate and is refused, we believe this changes how they view the network (and not usually for the better).

When we converse with network users, both on the platform and in user interviews, they consistently point out that the system restricts them from participating in the way they naturally want to. Separately, we find that many newer users, or users with lower rep, are unsure how to participate successfully on the network; many are not even sure how to effectively use the features that are available to them. From our research, we know that users often create accounts to perform specific actions (upvote, comment, edit e.g.), only to see these messages after creation and learn that they are not permitted to do what they set out to do.

The original rationale behind the wording of the error messages above was reasonable: Users who encounter restrictions might be encouraged to do something about it if those restrictions are explained to them simply and sufficiently well. In most cases, this means the rationale suggests the user will go out and get the rep they need, potentially becoming active participants in the process. However, a growing body of evidence suggests that users do not respond this way. Instead, when these users attempt to participate on the network, and their attempt is refused by the system, they are inclined to feel shut out. They may learn that…:

  • …the system opposes what they naturally want to do.
  • …the system is difficult to engage with.
  • …they are not trusted to engage in basic activities.

If a user feels these statements about the network are true, then we believe this makes it less likely for them to return to the network and participate in the future.

As with any assessment of users’ thinking, this set of beliefs has its limitations. It is informed by both research and discussion, and neither of those is foolproof. Some of our beliefs about this state of affairs could be wrong. But the evidence strongly suggests there is something worth testing here.

I want to be clear up front that we are not proceeding on the assumption that it is appropriate to simply remove the associated restrictions. For example, while we could remove the 50-rep commenting restriction, the design choice is load-bearing: we can’t remove it wholesale without expecting some unwelcome knock-on consequences for curators and Stack Exchange systems. We could certainly find a safe way to remove that rep requirement, but it would necessitate a deeper rethinking of the way the network operates. That’s a larger proposition, and it would be hard to test nondisruptively. Even if it ends up being the right thing to do, we’d be wise to attempt to validate our beliefs a bit first. So…:

We are running a series of A/B tests to better understand how, and whether, to redirect users to alternative actions.

While it’s very difficult to measure what goes on in a user’s head, we can test against what actions a user performs after they see a modal. When a user attempts to perform an action they can’t yet do, we expect that if we redirect that user toward a related action they can do, they will be more likely to return and contribute in the future than if they’d been shown an error message.

We are going to run a series of experiments surrounding this theory, which all involve redirecting users from an action they can’t (yet) perform towards an action they can currently perform. However, we’re going to take it a step at a time. What we learn from earlier tests informs what we try in later tests. So for now, let’s just look at:

The first A/B test

All of our planned experiments involve redirecting users from an action they can’t do towards an action they can do - one that should be as closely related to the original action as possible.

The first test involves redirecting users who attempt to upvote a post to save that post for later instead. During this A/B test, users in the ‘B’ group will see the following modal upon voting:

A screenshot of the Stack Overflow homepage showing the upvote redirection modal design in situ. The contents of the modal are described in the next image.

A modal that appears during the A/B test when attempting to upvote with less than 15 rep. It reads: Hang on, you can't upvote just yet. You'll need to complete a few actions and gain 15 reputation points before being able to upvote. Upvoting indicates when questions and answers are useful. Instead, you can save this post to reference later. A link is provided to the "What's reputation and how do I get it?" Help Center article. Finally, the dialog contains three buttons: an exit button in the upper right corner, "Save this post for later" in dark blue, and "Not now" below it.

We plan to measure the difference in future participation between the A and B groups.

We expect that the exact nature of what we test and measure will change between each experiment that we run. However, in general, you can expect us to run a fairly standard A/B test.

Our goal will be to produce a control group and a test group that have approximately the same demographics (reputation, contribution history, creation time), and measure how their activity changes. The control group will see the current error message, and the test group will see a redirection modal.

Between the control and test group, we are particularly interested in comparing:

  • The fraction of users who later return to the network.
  • The fraction of users who later perform specific contribution actions (ask, answer, edit, e.g.).

We’ll also be monitoring how often users engage with the redirection modals in order to make sure that it’s working the way we intend (though this is not, strictly speaking, a measure of success).

Cleanup: timeline and your requests

This is an open-ended experiment series. We expect to make modifications to what we plan to test as we go. Though some of our experiments may become long-term changes to the platform, our primary aim is not to release a specific change - yet. Our immediate interest is in understanding how users respond to redirection across a few different designs and actions. This also means the timeline for these experiments is fluid as we run tests that we hope validate the concept, and if so, help us settle on a final design.

The first A/B test is scheduled to begin the week of February 18th, but after that - we’ll see.

This also means that if you’ve got specific requests for redirections we should test, we’d be happy to consider them in answers below. (We may or may not be able to do them, depending on their complexity, though!)

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  • 29
    The prompt for users with <15 reputation who vote has been a bug bare for me for awhile; it's a lie. If we can remove that lie it would be great. If we could consider actioning those upvotes after they get the reputation needed (after a grace period, or something, as some users can "teeter-totter" around 15 reputation) that could be a consideration too (then their vote is recorded, and actioned in the future).
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:30
  • 10
    Another valiant attempt and something I applaud is finally picked up. I have been known to... absolutely trash the way the site expresses itself and I have no remorse doing that. It's robotic, it's ambiguous in its terseness and different pages can say contradictory things even. Every time new texts are added it is almost like there was a session about how to write it as ambiguous as possible, it kind of hurts me. It isn't only the dialog boxes, I hope you realize that.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:42
  • 28
    yeah, @ThomA - haven't been personally too fond of telling users their feedback "has been recorded." It's not technically incorrect but definitely implies we're doing something specific with that data that we're not
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:44
  • 7
    I like the concept... but i'm unsure if suggesting they save the post is relevant to upvoting. Are we suggesting they save it so they can upvote it later? if so, isn't it a bit confusing at that point to say it was "recorded", what value does it being "recorded" have to them, if we're suggesting they come back later? I would probably just go all in and say that explicitly and drop the "recorded" part.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:44
  • 4
    @KevinB They're at least conceptually related: a casual user might reasonably accept a suggestion to save something they found useful. But yeah, any redirection is not going to 100% capture the original intent of the user. Redirecting to saves is also a lot simpler than redirecting to other actions; not a whole lot users can do w/ less than 15 rep.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:55
  • 4
    They could answer questions to get them that 15 rep they're missing, but yea there's not really a lot otherwise. if going the answer questions route the button could even point to a question list filtered by the tags on the given question so they see related unanswered questions.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:58
  • 1
    @KevinB honestly a really good idea, and clearly measurable, too
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 16:10
  • 2
    Thank you for prioritizing more onboarding improvement work!!! Really happy to see more experimentation and work in this area.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 16:55
  • 3
    Why does it matter if they can upvote yet? Let them think they did. Maybe even treat it as a queued vote, pending their eventual permission, only visible to them. This question reminds me a lot of this: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/327879/621962
    – canon
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:13
  • 3
    @canon I'm not sure how comfortable we'd be with a change that would mislead users, particularly about something as important to site health as voting. Reserving the votes for later is something we've considered in the past, though it needs more analysis imo
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:55
  • 4
    @Slate It's not misleading; it's simply abstracting away unnecessary details from those lacking the requisite rep (likely knowledge) to understand or care. You present recognizable voting controls and then punish the user's valid attempts by hijacking their workflow with a modal dialog. There's no immediate action they could take to reliably level up; so, it's just a frustrating barrier. We already ask the user to care too much about underlying implementations, e.g.: distinction between flag, close, and delete. Want engagement? Reduce friction.
    – canon
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:09
  • 7
    I found it quite misleading how it said "feedback has been recorded" when I voted before having enough rep. I thought it meant the votes would count once I reached the rep threshold. Instead, all my votes became wind. Luckily for me, I saved/faved the questions/answers I wanted to upvote and proceeded to go back over all of them once I had enough rep.
    – Clockwork
    Commented Feb 14 at 8:08
  • 8
    @Clockwork "I thought it meant the votes would count once I reached the rep threshold." That's how it should have behaved, imo.
    – canon
    Commented Feb 14 at 14:07
  • 2
    I think this looks really good. The use of the term “redirect” confused me though because I’m used to that that meaning sometimes else. Commented Feb 14 at 21:37
  • 4
    Only now I realized that upvotes become available earlier than downvotes: I just joined CSEducators (so 101 rep) to downvote an answer, but was only able to upvote the question and another answer, but not downvote what I wanted to... The existing banner is poorly worded: Thanks for the feedback! You need at least 125 reputation to cast a vote, but your feedback has been recorded. I don't need 125 rep to cast a vote, but only to cast a downvote - can this be fixed instead of adding a huge modal right in my face?
    – STerliakov
    Commented Feb 16 at 17:53

8 Answers 8

35

It's perfect

and can not be improved:

  • Very concise.
  • Link to click.
  • Linked page contains all information needed (right? unable to check).

This is a flawless design: name the problem and give direction. The chatty message is anti-pattern: noone will read it, the dialog will be closed and user will just remember "do not click here".

Please spend your time on bug-fixing and demanded features implementation. The continuous "revamping" is often a signs of stopped development (few fixes a week is too slow!).

Maybe improve help-center instead? Make it nice and modern, with pictures, animations and well thought easy-to-read content?

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  • 14
    I support the experiment but I also support what you said about the current message. We should be having more like it - short, dismissible, just in time, leads to some actionable result. Doesn't hide the content you came here for.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 14 at 10:55
  • 1
    "unable to check" For reference 50 reputation takes you to the comments privilege page (so now you can check).
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 14 at 14:59
  • 2
    "The chatty message is anti-pattern" this. I consistently have to edit the default duplicate comment when I vote to close due to the new verbose default to see the same trend in a new pop up is disheartening.
    – pilchard
    Commented Feb 17 at 14:54
  • I'd like a mix. Just use the pop-up but say something like "You must have [15 reputation] to upvote. Instead, you can [save this post]."
    – roundabout
    Commented 9 hours ago
  • I don't think it's useful to explain the meaning of reputation, it's already explained in the tour, a link to "What is reputation?" in the amount required should be enough. Also, I don't like chatty messages either.
    – roundabout
    Commented 9 hours ago
30

I like the slick old message. Basically, it's up to the point

Old message

Except ...

It's far from perfect

Provide some helpful advice instead of useless info.

The link goes to 50 reputation comments, which is not helpful for the user.

  • "What are comments" - the user already knows that. Otherwise they wouldn't have tried to comment. Other systems have a comments function as well. It is not hard to understand what comments do and how they work.
  • "How do I comment" - again, the user already knows. They tried and they did it in the right place, otherwise the message wouldn't have popped up.
  • "What happens when I comment?" - isn't interesting, because they can't.
  • "When should I comment?" - is perhaps interesting, but by now, the user has already left the page, because the previous 3 items were not interesting.
  • "When shouldn't I comment?" - same as before.

The only interesting question "How the f*** do I get 50 rep, I want to comment now" isn't answered anywhere. And it takes 4 months for a new user to achieve it (citation needed, maybe someone can write a SEDE query for the median time it takes).

The link is put on "50 reputation", but is not about 50 reputation. The given link should be put on "comment", because it is about commenting. If there is a link on "50 reputation", it should go to What is reputation? How do I earn (and lose) it?.

My proposal: keep the slick popup, just change the link to the correct page. That's it.

24

This is huge...

I mean literally, this is a pop-up that would take almost half the page (the usable part in the middle) and will be annoying. So instead of improving newcomers' experience, you'd piss them off; and that will taint the results. I believe something less intrusive will have a better chance to show if this is a useful change.

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  • 1
    It's a good thought. I will say that if return/participation rates are affected by the modal, that can be expected to show up in experimental data. Though naturally, an annoyance/shift small enough might be smaller than the power of the experiment or be hidden by a larger positive shift, so we might not detect it numerically.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:01
  • @Slate this is what I pointed out in my answer on MSE. It is already set in stone, so you gotta run with the current design, even though common sense would tell, at least me, otherwise.
    – M--
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:47
  • 4
    Don't worry. There's going to be more tests. These aren't supposed to be heavy investments. I've passed along the feedback. This isn't a "drop everything and change it" issue, but that doesn't mean it's unimportant to consider.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:59
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    The modern web design of SLAP YOU WITH A MODAL is exceptionally annoying. I often simply leave websites that do it. Ones I'm not an invested member in. I feel it's much better when you interact with an element to get a small tooltip next to it. Because usually I want to be able to still see the page when I do something. Secondly, if I've interacted with something, my attention is there anyway. I don't need a punch in the eyeballs for the message to be seen.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 14 at 10:53
  • That is true, modals are annoying. ... and apparently popular enough that they even became a standard HTML feature. They do counteract that "people don't read" issue though. No you have to read, or willingly close the modal without doing what is expected of you. But then you really can't say you weren't warned.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 18 at 13:29
  • 1
    @VLAZ wait, before you leave, would you like to subscripe to our newsletter? No? How about we keeping up to date via push notifications?
    – m.reiter
    Commented 2 days ago
10

Users who cannot perform an action should not even be shown the UI elements to perform that action. This is UI design 101.

7
  • This. Don't show the vote button, and don't show "add a comment". Just show the existing comments, and the vote total.
    – Teepeemm
    Commented Feb 19 at 1:33
  • 9
    Disagree. If I can't find "comment" button I will keep searching. If I found it and it tell me that I can't comment now then I can spend my time on something more productive than looking around in search of non existent button.
    – talex
    Commented Feb 19 at 13:30
  • 5
    @talex why not replace "Add a comment", with another button, e.g. "How to leave a comment", which then explains why one cannot leave a comment?!!1
    – M--
    Commented Feb 19 at 17:27
  • @M-- I have nothing against that approach.
    – talex
    Commented Feb 19 at 20:21
  • 10
    Users ought to be shown clearly disabled UI elements for actions they probably want to do, but can't. Buttons and links that are active, but only result in a popup/modal saying "this doesn't do anything (yet)", are just bad practical jokes. Commented Feb 20 at 4:31
  • 3
    The following seems optimal and least-abrasive to me, as a user: for actions I can't take, show the clearly-disabled-UI-element, with hover-over tooltip explaining why it's disabled. Does that address everyone's concerns and wishes?
    – Don Hatch
    Commented 2 days ago
1

I like the redirect option. Maybe pair with clearly disabling the actions they're not allowed to use (grey out the button/text, etc), with hover text that explains why. Then if the user clicks it anyway, the popup shows with the redirection.

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  • Do you always hover over every button before clicking on it?!! I like the idea of greying out though.
    – M--
    Commented 2 days ago
  • @M-- if there's a clearly-disabled button that I wish I could click, then yes I'll hover over it while pondering why it's disabled, and so the hover text would be exactly the right behavior to lead me to success/clarity.
    – Don Hatch
    Commented 2 days ago
  • 1
    I really don't think it's necessary or helpful to have a "if the user clicks on it anyway" action for a clearly-disabled button, though. That seems like a rabbit hole to more confusion (e.g. terrible trying-to-be-helpful messages saying things like "your feedback has been recorded").
    – Don Hatch
    Commented 2 days ago
  • @DonHatch exactly my point, if you can click on it anyway, you wouldn't wait for the hover.
    – M--
    Commented 2 days ago
0

Users with low rep, typically new to Stack Overflow, frequently chafe against the limitations they encounter when they first try to use the website. [...] when these users attempt to participate on the network, and their attempt is refused by the system, they are inclined to feel shut out.

This does not only apply to votes but indeed to some other activities as well, I for one stopped (or never really started) doing reviews.

TLDR: While having access to the queues with 500 points one only gets to freely edit with 2000 points. Which leads to enough frustartion to stop doing them at all, as explained (and tried to solve) here.

Nothing came of my feature-request, but perhaps something can be thought of in this context? It is worth investigating as it affects over 300 000 potential curators on SO alone.

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  • This doesn't answer this question. Your SEDE query also doesn't account for user activity or interest in reviewing...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 17 at 14:45
  • 1
    @Cerbrus "[...]if you’ve got specific requests for redirections we should test, we’d be happy to consider them in answers below" thought maybe some note etc for this case could be implemented. Nothing else has been brought forward for that issue successfully.
    – A-Tech
    Commented Feb 17 at 15:44
  • Also how do you expect me to account for interest in a SEDE query of all things?
    – A-Tech
    Commented Feb 17 at 15:44
  • 2
    @Cerbrus Not an official number, but I know I am personally a user in that category who is quite interested in reviewing. And...I'm not alone. A huge portion of reviews in the 500 rep queues are users with less than 2k rep.
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 18 at 12:54
-3

When I try to Comment I'm not redirected (why?). I haven't understand if is obtained Reputation (or Rep/fractions) when something is recorded or on redirection, then my try to comment, seams to me, hasn't been recorded beyond none redirection.

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  • 2
    Hey there, we're not currently running any experiments related to comments. We're currently running a test with upvotes. Additionally, only some users will see the experimental version during each test, so while the test is running you may not be able to see it regardless.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:13
  • @Slate ohh.. I'm sorry, I hope you extended the experiment also to 'comments', cause the issue related to rising reputation is similar at 20+ rep.
    – pvt-Tron
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:17
  • Is my chance to become 'student' here... ;-)
    – pvt-Tron
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:21
  • 1
    We're hoping to run a similar test with comment redirection at a later point - there's more to sort out until we're ready for that, though :)
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 23:25
-8

As far as voting goes, I think the actual solution is obvious: Allow users with less than 15 reputation to vote, and modify the algorithm to ignore votes from users with less than 15 reputation at the current moment (as in, users who cast a vote while having less than 15 reputation will have that vote reflected once they have 15 reputation, while users that lose enough reputation to go below 15 reputation will stop having their votes count). I understand not allowing them to downvote answers, considering that it costs the voter 1 reputation, but they should be allowed to upvote answers and upvote or downvote questions as much as they want 30 times per UTC day, plus 10 more times on questions only. In the case of downvoting answers without enough reputation, then the redirect should appear, asking them to flag the comment if it is spam, offensive, a duplicate, or off-topic.

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  • 3
    This is essentially a Shadow Ban, and it's a bad idea. Commented Feb 18 at 13:36
  • @RobertHarvey Waiting until they have 15 reputation to factor their vote into a post's score is "essentially a Shadow Ban"? How so? Isn't the point of a shadow ban to limit a user's ability to participate in a community without letting them know? How is letting them provisionally vote on a post equivalent to that?
    – Eagle-Eye
    Commented Feb 18 at 21:15
  • 2
    i would prefer just allowing the votes to count.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 18 at 21:19
  • @KevinB Me too, but my thought process is that it's easier to sell staff on a change with no risk of being abused by botting than it is to sell them on just letting anyone vote.
    – Eagle-Eye
    Commented Feb 18 at 21:23
  • 3
    @Eagle-Eye it's not staff that needs to be sold on 1 rep voting, ;)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 18 at 21:24

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